Sunday, August 19, 2012

Caveat Emptor: A Review of The Monolith Beyond Space and Time




 Are you a fan of Monolith from Beyond Space and Time? Fair warning: I'm about to rain all over your parade.

Are you going to be playing Monolith from Beyond Space and Time? Fair warning: spoilers ahead; you'd best go elsewhere.

Do you hate long blog posts? Buckle up, this is going to be a bumpy ride.

Lamentation of the Flame Princess is an imprint that prides itself on being brutal and uncompromising; it is in that spirit that I'm going to review The Monolith from Beyond Space and Time, the first of two modules funded by an Indiegogo fundraiser that are well over-due. Sadly, I can't report that the adventure was worth the wait. The short version, for those of you who skip to the end of novels and fast forward to the last scene of a movie, is that Monolith from Beyond Space and Time is a waste of Space and Time.

Fine, before we go further, I'll say something nice: the art is really good.

Monolith is a modern iteration of the worst aspects of 2e AD&D adventure railroads. For example, there are quite a few terrible Ravenloft modules that begin with this premise: “Hah, you got sucked into the Mists and now you have to go on this adventure!” Aping that awful convention, Monolith says, “Hah, you saw the Monolith, now you're FUCKED!” Yes, that's right, as soon as the characters so much as SEE the titular Monolith their brains are invaded by pseudo-Lovecraftian entities that fuck them up and cede a large degree of control over the characters to the GM. The players have literally no recourse to prevent this, to fight back against it, or to reverse it in a meaningful way without doing exactly as the designer has dictated.

Here are the relevant quotes from the text: "Anyone within 30' of the Monolith will see it clearly, unobscured by the mist. All such characters will automatically be invaded by such lightsurfing craft which travels into the character’s eye and through the optic nerve straight into the character’s brain. The craft will then receive all of the character’s sensory input and thought output. It will have the ability to control the flow of both of these, but these beings are here to study and observe (for now), not interfere. Unless of course, their mission is threatened."  -- so, you stumbled this thing and it takes over your character's brain, no questioned asked.  Is this bad and does it rob you of agency and put you on a railroad of the GM's devise?  Well, let's see what this brain invasion does: "From the character’s point of view, he will awaken in the morning to find himself surrounded by the mutilated remains of whatever victims were present (or who have come along). No one will be spared. The character will be covered in blood and gore; the violence is dealt out his with hands and teeth, not his weapons. When the characters return to civilization, things will get even worse. If within a solid structure such as a building, the possessors will reset their “kill” boundary to the walls of the structure instead of 100', but everyone within those walls has got to die. If the characters sleep in an inn, they will wake up to find everyone in the place slaughtered. It might be best dramatically to have no one outside the inn aware, although having someone start thumping on the front door shouting a hearty “Anyone in there?” after the situation sinks in would be particularly stress inducing (and therefore should be done!)." -- to me, this reads as the GM just took over your character, and here's what's going to happen because that's what the plot dictates.  You can't "play" your way around this happening to your character, it just does because your character happens to have eyes and the GM wanted this to happen.  

On that last point, I wonder at who this adventure is even aimed at. At best, I could see it working as a one-shot with a cast of disposable characters. However, if that was the approach you can bet that most of the horrifying elements will fall flat because the players aren't likely to invest in a bunch of crash-test dummies you're running into a wall of game-changing certain doom. At worst, this module is inappropriate for established characters in the middle of a compelling campaign. For example, if you ran this as a FLAILSNAILS game on Google+, congrats, you've likely just wrecked those characters for use in other FLAILSNAILS games. Frankly, this module would be better off it were written to be a storygame; as it is, it barely interacts with LotFP's D&D-ish rules, and the Monolith sections especially are more orientated toward both the players and the GM figuring out what happens in new “scenes” as the characters wander the Monolith.

Much of the “fuck you, that's why” stuff in this module is imbecilic. Don't believe me? Check out this possible consequence for fighting a giant fish: “if a time paradox does occur with the fish, the campaign world and all connected universes fold in on themselves ending everything. Not only is this game over, but the Referee in question can never run an RPG session again, with any system, because all their possibilities have been canceled.” Wait, what? If you were writing an adventure why would you even waste ink putting this nonsense to paper? (Yes, that's a real quote from the adventure; yes, it really is that dumb.)

Actually, I even question whether this qualifies as an “adventure.” It seems more like a thought experiment in game design than it does a developed scenario. (I am sure, however, that this aspect will be touted as “edgy” and “boundary-pushing” or some such.) You see, despite the Monolith being described as “an alien structure which phases in and out of time and space,” it's really just a long, white, featureless hallway. What was claimed to be “one of the wildest adventures your group will ever play” on the Indiegogo page is, in fact, an empty white hallway. Wild stuff, man.

Yes, that's right, no maps here. The players are expected to navigate and explore this blank canvas by apparently outright stating things like “I want to find treasure” or “I look for monsters,” and then things happen. Of course, there's no indication that this is what the players are supposed to do to explore the Monolith. And since that runs contrary to most people's usual mode of playing a D&D-derived RPG, I'd hazard a guess that they will spend a lot of time puzzling-out this non-puzzle. Oscar Wilde wrote that there is no such thing as good people or bad people; instead, there are only interesting people and tedious people. I think that can apply to games as well and unfortunately Monolith is of the latter sort.

The worst fault of this module is the staggering number of middle fingers it gives the players as they stumble around this nonsensical non-labyrinth. Most everything in the Monolith exists to fuck over the characters for no reward. I also wonder how modules like this fit into LotFP's version of the B/X rules; there is literally nothing to gain (in the traditional sense) from exploring the Monolith. It does, however, explain why this module is said to be suitable for characters level 0-infinity: character capabilities, as well as player capabilities, simple don't matter in the grand scheme of Monolith's utterly arbitrary “encounters” and effects.

I have nothing against difficult game scenarios, but the issue with Monolith is that it doesn't even have the decency to be a death-trap dungeon. Death-traps at least give you the opportunity to test your skill as a player against a fiendish and clever design. Since there is precious little design here, Monolith doesn't reward smart or innovative game play; rather, it simply punishes you for showing up. I don't know about you, but that kind of arbitrariness seems like a shoddy way to treat a group of folks who have ostensibly gathered to play an actual game. This is the Weird Fantasy equivalent of “Rocks fall, everybody dies” but worse because if your character was crushed by random boulders you could at least go home and not have to play through the rest of this mess.

Strangely, it's a mess that seems at odds with the advice on adventure creation given in the LotFP Grindhouse box, such as “A good rule of thumb: Ask yourself, “Are the situations the PCs will face a logical conclusion of the course of action they have chosen to take, or are they being put in these situations solely because I want them to do certain things?” and "Just remember that while there may be more important forces at work in the greater game world, the game as it is played at the table by the real people present is all about the PCs and the choices they make. So make sure they indeed have such choices they can make." This must be a case of “do what I say, not as I do” as Monolith completely ignores these two solid pieces of advice. Which seems to be the direction LotFP is heading in: modules to be read, not actually played. (Seriously, I haven't seen anyone say that Death Love Doom is actually good, just that it's an “interesting read, like a short story.”) (1)

And that's the crux of this module: it has nothing to do with the agency of the players gathered to suffer through it, as there is nothing they can do to solve the problems posed by the Monolith's presence. The players can shut the door to and from the Monolith only when inside it (and this would seem to doom them to an eternity within it), and simply leaving the door open means that the world is forever in danger from the Monolith's warping influence. What this means is that to escape the Monolith's effects, one of the characters has to stay behind to shut the door. (Alternately, if the characters have a hireling they can convince to stay behind and close it up, I guess that would work...good luck convincing them that they should sacrifice themselves though. Hope the party's magic-user has Charm Person memorized, I guess.) Any choices the characters make within it, as well as any exploration they do or any hard decisions made inside it, ultimately mean nothing in the end game. Downbeat endings are all fine and well, but unavoidable ones simply seem like lazy writing. And that, friends, is what this module is: a lazy writing experiment and not a particularly useful gaming product.

(For more on player agency and Monolith, do take a look at Brendan's fantastic review of it here.)
(Just noticed that there is a review of Monolith in the comments of this post that seems pretty much in-line with what I wrote here.  I agree with something on YDIS, what is this world??)
(1) Also, thanks to Brendan for looking up those quotes.

76 comments:

  1. Ouch. That... doesn't sound too good.

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    1. I am sure there will be other folks who see more value in it, but...I just don't think it is good at all.

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    2. If you were an editor for LotFP, and this module was submitted to you, what would you suggest to fix the agency and reward issues while changing as little as possible otherwise?

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    3. That's a tall order, but I'll give it a shot.

      1) I would drop the brain invasion thing altogether. As it's written, the players don't have a way to know what has happened to them and it seems safe to assume they will explore the Monolith anyway.

      2) Cut all the valley encounters that the players can't do anything about; replace them with encounters that heighten the sense of dread they'd feel approaching the Monolith by showing its effects on the surrounding lands in a way that the characters can actually interact with without automatically being fucked.

      3) The Monolith needs more clues as to what is going on in it and what the consequences of certain actions are. It also needs more actual rewards that occur when the players play smart.

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    4. All those things would make it a better conventional D&D-type adventure. But they'd also gut it of most of its Lovecraftian horror. So the problem seems to be that Lovecraftian horror doesn't make for good conventional D&D-type adventures. No surprise there. Brendan already explained why that is in his own review.

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    5. I'll take "good adventure" over "tr00 Lovecraftian horrorz" any day.

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    6. Well, who wouldn't? I'll take good adventure over Gothique wankery any day, too.

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    7. Ah, nice cheap personal shot, Ed. Of course, since you don't pay to read my blog you haven't been bilked out of an adventure the way anyone who bought Monolith has. (Also, do you have a job? Why do you have so much free time to comment here day and night? You must have a clear schedule to be able to trawl the blogowank looking to avenge any slight to the honor of LotFP.)

      Oh wait, didn't we decide that we were done here? And yet, you keep coming back like the penicillin hasn't kicked in. I'll put it in a way that even you can understand: since you can't seem to discuss anything without descending into personal attacks, and the deeper crime of being tedious, you're not welcome to comment here.

      But since you seem to have an abundance of free time on your hands, why don't you go here and explain whether you've got Asperger's or not to the YourDungeonisSuck crew; they seem genuinely curious: http://yourdungeonissuck.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/keep-the-monolith-reviews-coming/#comments

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    8. Take it to the LotFP forums, sucka.

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  2. Maybe this module, in the long run, will spark further discussions on player agency vs. GM fiat vs. lousy modules, so we can all evolve into better gamers. Even though, in the present and short term, it'll cause us to clamor around and gnash our teeth like a bunch of apes...

    Apes see a tall slab: 2001 A Space Odyssey

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    1. My bet is that we won't even be talking about it at all after a few weeks ;)

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    2. These things pass quickly in the age of the internet, I'm told.

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    3. I hope the discussion Stelios imagined does happen because all this clamoring around and gnashing teeth like a bunch of apes will just be pathetic if we never evolve beyond it.

      And, if that discussion does happen, then The Monolith from beyond Space and Time could end up having an even better effect on old-school RPGing than Carcosa did.

      So, in hopes of fanning the flame of that discussion, I submit these links:

      http://www.lotfp.com/RPG/discussion/topic/394/positive-result-from-a-bad-review

      https://plus.google.com/u/0/112262093672917983853/posts/1Ymfz9FvCr2

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    4. Any press is good press, I suppose. Frankly, the fanboys who apparently couldn't read the entirety of what I had to say got me a lot of blog traffic, so everybody wins. Even YourDungeonisSuck wins! http://yourdungeonissuck.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/keep-the-monolith-reviews-coming/

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    5. YDIS wins until people stop going there. I followed links to it four times. That was enough for me.

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    6. People won't stop going there because beneath the snark and general vileness, there's a bit of truth there sometimes.

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    7. Sounds like an addiction.

      "I know it's destroying me a little more every time I use it, but I can't resist the way it still sometimes makes me feel."

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    8. Huh? It's not destroying me at all; sometimes it's funny, and this time it's managed to direct more folks to my humble blog than all the other referring links COMBINED.

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    9. I didn't mean you specifically, just people in general. You said, "People won't stop going there because...", and I replied to that.

      But, exploring the metaphor, many addictive substances do prevent addicts from perceiving that they're being destroyed by altering their self-perception. And both ideas and social environment can alter our self-perception, too. Yet more reasons why objective self-perception is probably impossible.

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    10. Well, I came here because Michael Moscrip linked this review on Google+ and I am a subscriber.
      I think criticism is fair, but "everything fucking sucks" is as useless and pointless as "everything is great."
      And, no, I still haven't read your review, Jack. Sorry. I'm lame. I haven't read "monolith" either.

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    11. I think you mistake me. "This sucks" is useless whereas "this sucks because..." potentially isn't... but the potential is all in what comes after "because."

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  3. I don't have the module but from your description is the slaughter surrounding a character when he awakens not something similar to how a DM might handle a player becoming a werewolf. In other words transferring agency to the DM is not such a failure as you are making out. There are many instances of temporary insanity and mind control where this technique is necessary and can have a powerful effect. Personally I tend to let good players roleplay through the inasanity but for other players I take control temporarily.

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    1. @Kent

      Usually a ref doesn't just decide by fiat to make PCs werewolves though, no? Maybe they fight a werewolf and are cursed in the process, but in any case have lots of options to problem solve before, during, and after the event.

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    2. It's not the effect that bothers me, but rather the way it is delivered. To follow through with the werewolf metaphor, catching the disease/curse isn't a given if the players encounter a lycanthrope: they can run away, maybe luck is with them and they make their saving throws if they're bitten, etc. The Monolith allows for none of the smart play that makes the one set path through the adventure avoidable.

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    3. Yeah. I would have no problem making the players werewolves overnight but my sense of responsibility for some of the players would effectively make me their ally against the setting, so Im slow to use the technique but I do use it. Im reaching here but maybe the DM can aid the players against the module with hints and ooc discussion if it so relentless.

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    4. I would probably find myself doing that as well, which is sadly contrary to the GM instruction in the module itself. This makes me think that the module isn't very sporting at all.

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    5. I suppose you could take this as support for the comment about it being "railroady" but when I played the Monolith the effect of waking up with everyone around us in gruesome pieces was the thing that drove us back into the valley. We went back to Monolith to look for a way to undo what had happened to us. Otherwise we might have run for the hills.

      The Psychonauts are a two edged sword. They give you an extra level, but they also turn you into a terrible monster when you are sleeping. Some people might keep the level and sleep in the woods or a remote house, others would look for a way to fix it. The agency seems to be what the players do with the messed up situation they had no hand in creating.

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    6. Now that I think of it, it would great to adventure knowing you could sleep safely in a dungeon. Hmmm... maybe we were too hasty in charging back into the mists?

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    7. Sometimes your brilliance astounds me, David.

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  4. I don't see how it robs agency from players if every time they sleep everyone close by is dead. They can still choose where and when they sleep. Does this mean that if the same effects were caused by a group of NPC assassins, they would be robbing their agency as well? What choices does this effect remove from players?

    Or is it assumed that players should always be able to control every aspect of their character and this right can never, for any reason, be infringed? Even when their characters are not themselves in control of their faculties? If so, are NPCs then forbidden from using mind control spells for example?

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    1. The effect isn't what steals the players' agency, but rather the deliver of that effect. See Brendan's reply to Kent above. To extend the metaphor about the werewolf, it would be a railroad express if the GM said, "A werewolf jumps out of the bushes, bites you, and runs off. Now you've got lycanthropy. And the only way to cure it is do to this one special thing that will fuck one of you over." The Monolith does exactly that.

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    2. Isn't the whole valley and several curiouser and curiouser encounters on the way to the monolith warning enough that the place is fucked up and something like this is bound to happen if you keep on going?

      And yes, someone's going to get fucked up if you want rid of the effect, but nothing says it must be one of you. It could be anyone. To cure the lycanthropy, you must sacrifice a werewolf, but not necessarily the closest werewolf you can think of...

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    3. I'd compare this to someone collapsing the dungeon after you went in. There's not necessarily anything you can do about it when you hear the sound of the collapse.

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    4. Sure, but what's the alternative? Quit the game once you realize which one you're playing after 10 minutes and spend the rest of the time in front of the Xbox? Players have a reasonable expectation that the game in front of them is challenging and can be gamed in imaginative ways; this module isn't like that at all.

      I already covered the "it doesn't have to be one of you" prevarication in my review itself; see the joke about using Charm Person on a hireling. And could we not pretend that there is only one way to cure lycanthropy the way there is only one way to get rid of the Monolith's psychonaut lightsurfers?

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    5. Isn't that a problem in all dungeon-of-the-week campaigns? In sandbox campaign this isn't normally an issue.

      In my campaign the players decided not to go and steal a book from the monastery library, and went to check out a dungeon instead. Some challenges might indeed be too hard for the players. Some challenges you can't back away after certain point. In Horror on the Hill the lower dungeons are nearly unavoidable once certain things happen.

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    6. The point at which you can't back away from the Monolith is...just seeing it. That's not the same as not going in to certain dungeons or avoiding areas at all.

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    7. But, as Heikki Hallamaa already pointed out, you can back away from the valley and there's plenty of indications that you should.

      The Monolith from beyond Space and Time is exactly like most of James Raggi's other modules in that it clearly telegraphs to players that their characters should turn around and leave unless they can enjoy playing through the module even though that'll almost certainly mean their characters will at least wish they hadn't gone there, and quite possibly won't even survive.

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    8. Riiiiiight, it's the players' faults that Monolith sucks...because they agreed to play it when the GM put it in front of them. Yeah, no.

      I've already pointed out the ways in which this adventure is different from the previous ones.

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    9. But it is the players' faults for sending their characters into situations they obviously shouldn't go into. And that's exactly one of the primary elements of James Raggi's take on "weird fantasy". That's why almost every one of his modules incorporates that element. And it's also one of the primary elements of genuinely Lovecraftian horror, too. That's why it's stronger in this module than in any of his others. And that, more than anything else, is what makes this module different from any of this others, too.

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    10. No, it's the GM's fault for choosing a shit module.

      But we've covered all this before, both here and elsewhere, and I've grown tired of addressing the same tired excuses. I'm afraid this has to end here.

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    11. "Players have a reasonable expectation that the game in front of them is challenging and can be gamed in imaginative ways; this module isn't like that at all." ~Jack

      This module is more like that than any other module I've seen in years. The things an imaginative player can do with this module are absolutely limitless.

      You've spent/wasted so much time talking about On Sight effect when in reality, all it is is a hook to encourage players to do something they know they shouldn't: enter and explore the Monolith. Solving the 'problem' (if the players even think it's a problem) is covered in the module, and there are even some SIGNIFICANT rewards presented in the module for being the self-sacrificing player that gives up his/her character to let the rest of the group get away clean (again, assuming the players WANT their get away to be clean, not everyone would).

      "Most everything in the Monolith exists to fuck over the characters for no reward." ~Jack

      This especially is nonsensical since this module includes more player/character rewards than any other Raggi adventure I've seen. Hell if you have an imagination it shouldn't take very long to realize that the Monolith ITSELF can be a reward, and the Light Surfer invaders can then be used as a weapon by the players.

      Yeah, the module has some things that can fuck over the players; it's a Raggi adventure, they always have that. But this module can also turn the players into the most powerful group of characters in the campaign universe. You know what determines which will happen? The players, and as always, the dice.

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    12. Ok, burden of proof time because I need to cut to the chase with you lot: how can the players imaginatively game having their characters taken over by the lightsurfin' douchebags from beyond space and time?

      Put up or shut up. Literally tell me how the players can avoid that through their wiles or a lucky roll of the dice.

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    13. Wow man, I think fixation on this one piece of the module is blinding you to other pieces of it. Since that's all you seem to want to talk about, fine.

      There's precisely one way to avoid the light surfers: Don't get within 30' of the monolith with your eyes open. >30' with eyes open, no problem. <30' with eyes closed, no problem. Sure you could successfully argue that no character would know that ahead of time, but there you go, that's how you avoid it, if you absolutely want to.

      But avoiding it never the point. You are SUPPOSED to get it. Dealing with it is part of the adventure. Besides, you are WELL compensated for it anyways: instant level gain, immune to all diseases and magical effects while invaded, completely invincible while asleep, total body restoration EVERY morning (full HP heal, all injuries healed, even limb loss & scars, etc). Are you trying to tell me you can't think of ANY ways a player can use that to his/her own advantage?

      So you've decided you don't want to be a murder machine while you sleep? NO PROBLEM! The module includes two neat and tidy* ways to make that happen, and one less convenient way:

      *for all but one party member, heh.

      1. The easy solution: one party member agrees to go inside the monolith, close the door, and stand there for all eternity (Time doesn't exist inside the Monolith, and the inhabitants can't open it again if a physical being is touching the door) holding it closed. All possession effects are nullified, the monolith can never be seen again (while still closed), and all it cost was eternal boredom for one character.
      2. My fave, as above, but more clever: one party member agrees to go inside the monolith, face the exit, and wish for the Monolith to travel to the most distant planet in the universe that has intelligent life or just thousdands of years in the future or both, close the door (or not, whatever), chooses to become disembodied and chooses to become one with the multiverse, gaining an unspecified but significant benefit for his next character.
      3. Less tidy: Any characters not wishing to be possessed while sleeping simply do all their sleeping within the Monolith (fringe benefit: extra long life, all time spent within the monolith is ageless time). Don't want to be confined to the valley forever? No worries, use the Monolith to travel anywhere and anywhen you want! Your campaign just became Dr. Who.

      That last part is why I find your claims of railroading and lack of player agency baffling. Any GM willing to run this module for his players is QUITE LITERALLY giving his players ultimate and complete control over the entire campaign. Hell, look at page 38 under Adventure. If a player ever figures out the mechanics of how/why that happens, they can turn the adventure into ANYTHING THEY WANT.

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    14. "There's precisely one way to avoid the light surfers: Don't get within 30' of the monolith with your eyes open. >30' with eyes open, no problem. <30' with eyes closed, no problem. Sure you could successfully argue that no character would know that ahead of time, but there you go, that's how you avoid it, if you absolutely want to."

      Congratulations, you've managed to make me feel bad for Raggi since he has the dumbest fanboys in the OSR. Since, as you note, the characters have no way of knowing that they shouldn't look at the Monolith they have no way to employ the idiotic strategies you outline.

      Seriously, have you ever tried to walk 30' with your eyes closed? Fuck, do you Pembrooktonshire guys eat paint chips?

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    15. Since you continue to miss the point (FYI, it's the paragraph AFTER the one you quoted, which was obviously facetious) and seem more interested in insults than reasoned arguments, I'm just going to write you off as closed-minded and do us both a favor by not coming back.

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    16. Translation: You refuse to acknowledge the genius of this shit module and you pointed out that what I was saying was dumb and you hurt my feeeeeeeeelings.

      Don't let the door hit you on the way out, son.

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  5. >> Which seems to be the direction LotFP is heading in: modules to be read, not actually played.

    Very weird seeing this statement attached to the one adventure I've published that had seen more play before publication than any of the others.

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    1. @JimLotFP

      I think part of what gives that impression is that so much of the weirdness seems lost on the players. For example, take the lightsurfing invaders encounter. It's pretty cool to read about when preparing the module, but think about what the player is likely to actually experience. One extra level and 1d4 damage, followed by the lycanthropic nocturnal behavior. I'm not very familiar with the high level spell list in LotFP, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that the players have no way of discovering that interesting backstory, short of cheating and reading the module. Based on how it is written, I don't think I would allow PCs to get info from sages (how would they know anything?), and even getting info by using something like a wish spell seems unlikely (and LotFP doesn't have wish spells).

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    2. The particular details of that situation are mostly for Referee knowledge - if the description had just been a brief list of effects, that just wouldn't have cut it for something that makes a campaign take a left turn.

      But even though the players may never know the whys and wherefores of certain things, the actual workings of everything involving the Monolith are available by experimentation. For example, these lines in this review:

      "Of course, there's no indication that this is what the players are supposed to do to explore the Monolith. And since that runs contrary to most people's usual mode of playing a D&D-derived RPG, I'd hazard a guess that they will spend a lot of time puzzling-out this non-puzzle."

      While the lightsurfers are the point where the adventure really begins, the point where the players realize how to navigate the Monolith (and they always do) is the big A-HA! moment for the players when the adventure moves from "What the hell is this?" to "aaahhhh HHAAAAAAA!" and then all hell breaks loose as the players try EVERYTHING. That's been pretty much the reaction every single time I've run this thing, and I've taken the adventure around the horn plenty before this thing saw print.

      So it's a process of discovery, and then "So then, what do you do?" That question doesn't have only one answer, I can think of a hundred ways the lightsurfers' effects could be useful, and since release I've since been offered theories of getting around "the one solution to it" that I never thought of or intended (in the spirit of "YES THAT WORKS" that I applied to the whole process from character action to writer input) so it's hardly a one-solution puzzle at that.

      Oh, "And since that runs contrary to most people's usual mode of playing a D&D-derived RPG" is kind of the point of the whole thing.

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    3. It might be the point, but it doesn't make it a good adventure.

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  6. There are some classic adventures that have as their premise, "the adventurers are shipwrecked" or "the adventurers are taken prisoner".

    This premise is more than that, having effects that continue after the fact.

    For me, the usual answer for how to run adventures with a required premise and not violate agency is negotiating with the players. Asking them, "how about the adventure starts after a shipwreck?"

    I suppose for this adventure you have to have player buy in on "ok, your characters are going to be fucked by a real fucking mind fuck, and then we start the adventure, how about it?"

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    1. Starting off shipwrecked or captive is fine because there are things the players can do to get out of that situation. Not so much with Monolith, sadly.

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  7. I'm a bad commentor... I didn't read the whole review... nor did I read the book it is reviewing... so I am a completely craptastic commentator. Now that we have established that, this phrase bugs me:
    At worst, this module is inappropriate for established characters in the middle of a compelling campaign. For example, if you ran this as a FLAILSNAILS game on Google+, congrats, you've likely just wrecked those characters for use in other FLAILSNAILS games.
    I hate that. I play with some people who are kind of 'come what may' players and others who don't seem to like rolling up new characters when the dice turn against them or their luck runs out. It seems kind of weird that you rail against 'railroading' by the DM (or the adventure) but you also seem to be at least implying that player characters, if they are 'established' or 'treasured' or 'valued,' should be considered immune to getting killed/destroyed/obliterated.
    Is that really something you want? I've sometimes felt dissapointed when my character got killed, but when DMs offer me a redo, I say no because the idea of playing in a game with 'player immunity' bores me.

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    1. You probably should have read the whole thing before commenting because I covered this. It isn't that I think characters should get script immunity, it's that I think their demises should occur because of 1) bad choices or 2) bad luck. In Monolith their doom is utterly arbitrary; they can't get lucky to avoid it and it isn't avoidable by playing intelligently. Surely you understand the difference?

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    2. Read the whole thing? But it's so looooooooooooong!

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    3. I know, reading is an awful lot to expect from folks.

      Hey, whatever happened to that flip book thing you were working on?

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    4. ...they can't get lucky to avoid it and it isn't avoidable by playing intelligently.
      Yeah, that I probably wouldn't like.

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    5. Jack asked, Hey, whatever happened to that flip book thing you were working on?
      Short answer is, "Keep your shirt on... I'm still working on it."
      Slightly longer answer is: The book is/was mostly re-written (75%) and re-illustrated (100%), but then my computer crashed badly and it turns out that my backup was not backing up... so hopefully, if I can retrieve it, it will be done sooner rather than later... but it was a bad crash... which might have destroyed the manuscript except for some scattered notes that are elsewhere and/or have been mailed to Jim and thus can be recovered from my sent mail folder... which would suck... but hopefully I can get it back... still working on that. The new illustrations are done... unfortunately, after looking at them, I think they suck and have started redoing them and still have about 30+ to redo and 'color.' My S.O. thinks I am insane; she says, "You already spent a ton of time on those illustrations... no one is going to care," but I just don't like them, so, well, there you go.

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    6. "In Monolith their doom is utterly arbitrary; they can't get lucky to avoid it and it isn't avoidable by playing intelligently." ~Jack

      In Monolith, their 'doom' is only final if they do absolutely nothing about it. If that's the case, they deserve it.

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    7. You dodged the question, like a weasely fuck. Get the fuck out.

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    8. I surely didn't. You are essentially arguing that characters should always have at least SOME chance to avoid/mitigate/invalidate trap effects. (the Light Surfers are indeed a trap) I can agree to that, most of the time anyways. I will NEVER agree that the chance to avoid/mitigate/invalidate trap effects should ALWAYS come from dice, however. I'm here to tell you that characters adventuring in this module do have the appropriate chances, if you can put aside your assumptions long enough to see them.

      This is the Monolith from Beyond Space and Time. Emphasis on TIME. This Monolith does not obey time, at all. Why then would you expect everything about it to occur in the 'standard' order? The only difference between the Light Surfers and any other trap is the ORDER in which things occur, because the Monolith does not obey time.

      'Normal' trap order of events:

      1. detect it, choose 2 or 4 (or not, skip to 3) (blind luck, skip to 4)
      2. disarm it, skip to 4 (or not, skip to 3)
      3. trap goes off, skip to 5
      4. avoid trap entirely (somehow)
      5. go on your merry way

      Seeing the Monolith trap order of events:

      0. avoid trap entirely (don't get within 30' of the Monolith)
      1. trap goes off
      2. go on your merry way
      3. detect it
      4. 'disarm' it (ie: deal with it within the adventure) (or not, go back to 2 and stay there)

      If you 'disarm' this trap, problem solved. If you don't, either by choice or by inaction, you get to live with it.

      Another way to put it: most traps are obstacles that punish the unprepared and the oblivious, this trap is an obstacle that punishes those who do not complete the adventure.

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    9. " this trap is an obstacle that punishes those who do not complete the adventure."

      Translation: it's a railroad. Just like I said above.

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  8. This review reminds me of how my mother reacts to endings in movies that are not of the "happily ever after" variety. This adventure states in the beginning that it is basically a tribute to HP Lovecraft and we all know many if not most of his stories did not have happy endings. Even seeing some of the things in his story were enough to drive people to madness etc. Adventures like stories do not always need a happy ending.

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    1. I'm guessing you didn't read what I wrote because not having a happy ending isn't one of my complaints here. My complaints are about the railroading, lack of agency, and the amount of stupid shit in this module.

      It might also surprise you that rpgs =/= short stories.

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    2. Jack, in the OSR, rather than point out that the emperor is naked, we cover his gentiles with our hands and claim that the lack of clothing actually supports wearing whatever you want as opposed to forcing the emperor to cover his junk (which is the consumer's job, obviously).
      Please keep this in mind as you compose your posts in the future.

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    3. "The emperor isn't NAKED," they shrieked, and yet, none could tell me the color of his clothes.

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    4. "The players can shut the door to and from the Monolith only when inside it (and this would seem to doom them to an eternity within it), and simply leaving the door open means that the world is forever in danger from the Monolith's warping influence. What this means is that to escape the Monolith's effects, one of the characters has to stay behind to shut the door. (Alternately, if the characters have a hireling they can convince to stay behind and close it up, I guess that would work...good luck convincing them that they should sacrifice themselves though. Hope the party's magic-user has Charm Person memorized, I guess.) Any choices the characters make within it, as well as any exploration they do or any hard decisions made inside it, ultimately mean nothing in the end game."

      It seems like you want a situation where everything goes well for all and that there must be a solution to prevent the bad aspects of the ending from happening through smart play or other means. It's just that in the vein of HP there really was no hope to begin with.

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    5. That's actually not true; for example, in Lovecraft's "Call of Cthulhu" we get don't get a EVERYONE DIES ending because Cthulhu gets chased off when a boat is rammed into his head. People over-state this "no hope" thing all the time.

      There's a secondary point here too that people don't seem to get: there is a difference between stories and games. In stories there is no way to effect the outcome; what happens is received information from the text. In a game you should have the option of making meaningful choices that effect outcomes; that is the point of playing.

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    6. This, right here and very much. I assumed that, of all things, old school gaming would treat it as evident that player agency should be respected, and that railroading, illusionism and similar devices have been proven to be undesirable. This is one of the most important lessons to be learned from Dragonlance, and a lot of "2e era" modules.

      Yes, that makes it much harder to set up certain kinds of scenarios. I would argue that sometimes, it is appropriate to start with setups where the characters start out imprisoned, stripped of their equipment, broke, transported into a foreign dimension or something similar. It is just as acceptable to set specific physical or social boundaries to the action (the adventure takes place on an island or in another geographic area; there is a competent secret police in town which makes straightforward violence very risky). This stuff is all part of the premise, the rules of the game. But someone has to be able to play that game.

      So I would continue by suggesting that after establishing the initial conditions, the characters should be given a sufficiently broad range of possibilities to interact with the scenario and the game environment. Not necessarily spelled out ones, not necessarily ones that result in a happy ending, but in a way that makes a difference. The ingrained helplessness of horror, then, does not make for good gaming, or this feeling should be created through other means (for example through systematically powerful adversaries who can strike back in ways that hurt - like the Mythos, for example).

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    7. Spot on, Melan. You expressed exactly what I was trying to get at above, but probably didn't manage because I'm fatigued from refuting the same tired litany of "but it's like a Lovecraft story!" and "it's not a railroad because it only forces you to do exactly what the module wants!" doublethink.

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  9. Separately to consideration of the merit or lack of merit of this particular module I want to give encouragement to this reviewer for attempting a commentary which tries to intelligently engage critically with material presented for sale. I wholeheartedly welcome negative reviews if they are deserved and are backed up with observations which allow for further discussion.

    The OSR has for years been a disgusting community where 'friendship' is spread around greased with mindless '+1' coinage.

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  10. Seems like the best way for a player to deal with this module is when the DM begins the session by saying "There have been reports of strange things in this valley that appeared out of nowhere. . ." I'm a player and I hear that and my first reaction is "Well, good luck to the suckers hired to go investigate that! Where's the nearest tavern? Roll me up a harlot!"

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    1. Hahahaha! I really enjoyed this comment.

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